WW barb vs WW sin

Here is a topic where we focus on both ww barb vs ww sin. I want to discuss the strengths and weaknesses of both builds.

ww barb:

pros-

more physical damage than ww sin

better frames (correct me if I am wrong)

very high life

has widowmaker on switch

nice fcr even vs melee setup

cons-

do have magic damage but berserk has slow ias

has to sacrafice damage for fcr, fhr, and resist

widowmaker has to have a hel in it to handle at base dex

ww sin:

pros-

have venom for some extra add of damage

ls damage is effective though some damage was sacraficed

uses mb and wof and opponent needs tons of fhr to recover

easily obtains 50% dr without coa

has claw block

has decent fcr frames

cons-

does not have max ww frames

needs more raw damage

lacks ar

I want to hear more information so I can generate more strenghs and weaknesses of both builds.|||The barb has better frames, but both maintain the same % when facing melee and casters.

Barbs also don't sacrifice damage for fcr or res. If you meant fort vs enigma with that, then yes but you gain mobility.



WWsins always have max WW speed. They only need -13 to hit the last BP. Any and all "Chaos" claws automatically hit that BP. Ferals & Runics hit it with 0 IAS and a Suwayyah only needs 15 IAS.



AR depends on the claws. With a fools, you hit any opponent.|||barbs and ghosts have very similar skills. they both use WW as a main attack, have a standing swinging secondary attack, and both have stunning skills. both (in theory) work on a stun -> tele/attack sequence. ghosts and bvcs can tank about the same amount of damage because claw block essentially doubles ghost effective life (4k life + 60% claw block = 10k effective life).

in theory, that should mean they should play the same way, but thats not really true. the difference stems mostly from the mechanics of their stun skills.

leap triggers double fhr animation, which is great, but that alone is usually not enough to hold them in place long enough for a tele/attack to connect. barbs have very high DPS however, helping to compensate, as you don't need to land very many hits to win a duel.

the combination of wof/mb/shadow/bshield has a much higher chance of setting up a successful tele/attack. if you don't understand why, you'll just have to trust me for now; i don't want to go into it here. the swirly from the MB also helps to extend the attack sequence, as consecutive hits will trigger successive stun animations. however, ghost damage is much lower however, meaning you need to hit the opponent much more to win the duel.

you'll see the ghost as a much "stickier" attacker. that is, you'll constantly be on someone's back – i like to imagine a monkey on someone's shoulders just banging away on the head. barbs would be like a bull... easy to dodge for a while, but they only need to hit you once to kill you.

ghosts are better against casters and zons, but barbs will do better against other barbs and sins and in larger team duels.

i also feel ghosts are a more cerebral character: they have tons of "utility" skills to use to help them counter particular opponents and situations, and they usually have more control of the duel (in terms of the push/pull between the duelers, if not necessarily who actually wins). barbs are a bit more one-dimensional (though they definitely have their nuances as well) and i find them to be a bit more based on reaction and instinct.

also, very few people play ghost, so it will be easy for you to become TOP FIVE (!!!!) in your realm if you play one (VERY IMPORTANT!!!)|||Quote:








barbs and ghosts have very similar skills. they both use WW as a main attack, have a standing swinging secondary attack, and both have stunning skills. both (in theory) work on a stun -> tele/attack sequence. ghosts and bvcs can tank about the same amount of damage because claw block essentially doubles ghost effective life (4k life + 60% claw block = 10k effective life).

in theory, that should mean they should play the same way, but thats not really true. the difference stems mostly from the mechanics of their stun skills.

leap triggers double fhr animation, which is great, but that alone is usually not enough to hold them in place long enough for a tele/attack to connect. barbs have very high DPS however, helping to compensate, as you don't need to land very many hits to win a duel.

the combination of wof/mb/shadow/bshield has a much higher chance of setting up a successful tele/attack. if you don't understand why, you'll just have to trust me for now; i don't want to go into it here. the swirly from the MB also helps to extend the attack sequence, as consecutive hits will trigger successive stun animations. however, ghost damage is much lower however, meaning you need to hit the opponent much more to win the duel.

you'll see the ghost as a much "stickier" attacker. that is, you'll constantly be on someone's back � i like to imagine a monkey on someone's shoulders just banging away on the head. barbs would be like a bull... easy to dodge for a while, but they only need to hit you once to kill you.

ghosts are better against casters and zons, but barbs will do better against other barbs and sins and in larger team duels.

i also feel ghosts are a more cerebral character: they have tons of "utility" skills to use to help them counter particular opponents and situations, and they usually have more control of the duel (in terms of the push/pull between the duelers, if not necessarily who actually wins). barbs are a bit more one-dimensional (though they definitely have their nuances as well) and i find them to be a bit more based on reaction and instinct.

also, very few people play ghost, so it will be easy for you to become TOP FIVE (!!!!) in your realm if you play one (VERY IMPORTANT!!!)




That was a beautiful analogy!|||another downside for ghosts:

a BvC can be made with off-the-shelf runewords, sets and uniques. a ghost kind of needs a couple of top notch rare items to crank along (fcr hat and a nice fools claw being the most obvious ones).|||They can make do with plain gear.



A barb needs a certain type of Grief IAS.|||Quote:








The barb has better frames, but both maintain the same % when facing melee and casters.

Barbs also don't sacrifice damage for fcr or res. If you meant fort vs enigma with that, then yes but you gain mobility.



WWsins always have max WW speed. They only need -13 to hit the last BP. Any and all "Chaos" claws automatically hit that BP. Ferals & Runics hit it with 0 IAS and a Suwayyah only needs 15 IAS.



AR depends on the claws. With a fools, you hit any opponent.




Wait a minute this was the info I was looking for though its not part of the topic. Now tell me more about how ww sin ias works. I can really use any chaos claw to hit the breakpoint? Explain this further please.|||Quote:








Wait a minute this was the info I was looking for though its not part of the topic. Now tell me more about how ww sin ias works. I can really use any chaos claw to hit the breakpoint? Explain this further please.




The breakpoint (4fpa) of WW on a sin is at the effective wsm of -13. So a 0 base claw will only need 13 ias, like suwayyah, war fists will need 23 ias cuz they are 10 base. A ferals (-20) and runic (-30) always hit max WW speed. And yes any chaos or fury claw will hit max ww speed.|||Quote:








Wait a minute this was the info I was looking for though its not part of the topic. Now tell me more about how ww sin ias works. I can really use any chaos claw to hit the breakpoint? Explain this further please.




This explains how a Sin's WW works. I don't know why a different number is used for a sin, but it isn't the same as a Barb's -34.



Basically, WW's speed is calculated for each weapon and they each have independent checks. You take the WSM of the weapon (a Runic Talon for instance has a WSM of -30). You subtract the IAS% on the weapon from that number. Chaos has 35% IAS, so you'd subtract 35%.

That makes the number -65 for a Chaos Runic. You need a -13 to hit the 4th frame WW.



Any claw that can get 3 sockets (slowest is a Suwayyah at 0 WSM) will hit the 4th frame BP since you get at least -35 when you find the WW BP for that weapon.



Like I mentioned before on some that always hit it (even with 0% IAS), it's because the WSM of the weapon alone passes the -13 requirement. The typical claws you use (RT, GT, Ferals) all hit it without needing IAS. A Jade Talon or a Suwayyah claw needs at least an IAS Jewel or a Shael to hit the WW BP.|||Quote:








This explains how a Sin's WW works. I don't know why a different number is used for a sin, but it isn't the same as a Barb's -34.



Basically, WW's speed is calculated for each weapon and they each have independent checks. You take the WSM of the weapon (a Runic Talon for instance has a WSM of -30). You subtract the IAS% on the weapon from that number. Chaos has 35% IAS, so you'd subtract 35%.

That makes the number -65 for a Chaos Runic. You need a -13 to hit the 4th frame WW.



Any claw that can get 3 sockets (slowest is a Suwayyah at 0 WSM) will hit the 4th frame BP since you get at least -35 when you find the WW BP for that weapon.



Like I mentioned before on some that always hit it (even with 0% IAS), it's because the WSM of the weapon alone passes the -13 requirement. The typical claws you use (RT, GT, Ferals) all hit it without needing IAS. A Jade Talon or a Suwayyah claw needs at least an IAS Jewel or a Shael to hit the WW BP.




Ok this really helps but what claw would you use for your chaos on a ww/ls sin? I just need a general idea of what is best.